Nora has this habit of shifting POV from paragraph to paragraph, bouncing the POV from hero to heroine to bad guy to mother to sister to friend to WHOMEVER.
This bothers me, somewhat. I'm not sure if it goes against something that I was taught in a class or if it's something that comes out of reading so much fic, where POV is very carefully moved, if it changes at all.
As I see it/interpret it, Nora's doing this to make sure that what she wants the story to say and what she wants you, the reader, to know are presented. The problem that I have with this style is that it doesn't seem to be very... "show not tell".
She wants us to know how Bo(!), the studly carpenter, feels about Reena(!!) the Mary Sue-ish main character and so she jumps to his POV and tells us. Then, in the next paragraph, we get what Reena's mom thinks about Bo and so on. I'm not sure if I'm as clear about this as I want to/need to be but basically, she's taking an easy shortcut to tell her story instead of (in my mind) using the craft of writing to paint us the picture she wants us to see.
So, I'm asking you for your opinions, ideas, thoughts, etc on the subject.
Please, take the following poll and add any additional comments.
Poll #1239785 FIRST POLL EVER!!! WOOOO!
Open to: All, detailed results viewable to: All
Have you ever read a novel by Nora Roberts?
Yes
21 (60.0%)
No 12 (34.3%)
Are you freaking kidding me? 5 (14.3%)
BURN THEM! BURN THEM ALL! 3 (8.6%)
Have you read Blue Smoke?
Have you noticed changes in POV from paragraph to paragraph?
If you did notice, did it bother you?
Yes 8 (44.4%)
No 7 (38.9%)
Not at the time, but now that you mention it... 4 (22.2%)
Screw you, I liked it 2 (11.1%)
Is a shifting POV of this type something that would keep you from reading a story/book?
Yes 13 (37.1%)
No 3 (8.6%)
Don't care, don't care, OMG, don't care 1 (2.9%)
Depends on the author 11 (31.4%)
Depends - I'd have to start reading and go from there 20 (57.1%)
When you write stories, do you maintain a constant POV?
Yes - same POV through the entire fic/book/whatever 8 (25.0%)
Chapter to chapter might change but it's consistent within a chapter 22 (68.8%)
Whatever character needs to take over, that's who gets to take the wheel, even sentence to sentence. 1 (3.1%)
I change it up within a chapter but have clear breaks to indicate the switch 9 (28.1%)
Don't know, don't pay attention 1 (3.1%)
- Mood:
indescribable
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Comments
And (the problem with tickyboxes)- sometimes I notice it, sometimes not. Sometimes it bugs me, sometimes not. Depends on the author, my mood, the point in the plot in question, the position of the moon in Venus, etc.
And I'm with you- it depends on the author and the story, etc.
I don't know if it's her messing with the POV on purpose as much as she needs to have that incredible output and just goes with the flow, putting story to paper as it comes to her head.
This particular story has not been nearly as engaging as others of hers that I've read and it took me, no lie, 283 PAGES to finally give a shit. I'm researching romance novels and looking at the formula that sells as opposed to the formula that's good, etc so I was foricng myself to finish the damn book. The POV shift is just one of the many issues I have with it.
In this book, she's just not... up to snuff. Dialog is way to exposition-y, the POV shift stuff, main character is very Mary Sue-ish (and yeah, I know that lots of romance heroines are but Nora's generally better than that), mystery isn't all that engaging.
Now, there is a newer romance writer (well, new to me) that I really like her writing style and she writes really hot sex: Linda Lael Miller. Her McKettrick series is a fast read and feels worth the time while you're reading. I know that you're looking for new books. ;)
(er. End rant)
I agree, playing with POV can make for great stories and can really make or break a book.
I guess my biggest issue with this particular book is that there is no clear change or switch from one to the other, outside of a FOCUS shift.
For example: Bo comes into the room and is thinking about how hard it is to find Reena in her house. When he gets into the room with her, all of a sudden, she's going to the window and looking out at the street wondering if the killer is coming for her soon. (not the real plot)
Bugs the shit out of me. She could have structured that scene so that there was a clear shift, using each POV to reveal something about the other person in the scene and she IGNORES her chance.
All of them use PoV shift to give you the pieces they need you to have, so really it doesn't bother me.
And, well, I do so much co-writing where we're both in our particular character's heads' that it's almost impossible to knock it back down to one character's pov, so I tend to go for limited omniscient as my preferred narrative style.
--two bits from a random stranger
To be clear, I don't have an issue with changing the POV character. I see the need for that, esp in the epic fantasy that you mentioned above. There is also a need for that in romance novels, mostly because you have TWO protagonists and two sides of the story that you need to tell, more so than in a lot of other types of fiction.
And you never want to get into the position that I think JK Rowling got herself into, in that she decided on third person specific and the result was that the last book has us sitting in the woods with Harry, when the action was back at Hogwarts. (No, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?)
The problem I have is how the switch is made from one to the other. If you have a clear change from one to the other- a space, a new chapter, something- ANYTHING- that tells me there is a shift- I'm with you.
It's when you're rolling along, in someone's head and then the next line jumps to someone else, that's what throws me. It's like, "wait a second! Weren't we just in Bo's head and now we're not? When did THAT happen?"
So, while I'm not at all suggesting Nora Roberts writes like Flaubert, I think there might be some of that willingness to use free indirect style showing. Read Madame Bovary and let the genius of free indirect wash over you, if you haven't yet done that. It'll change how you think of the narrator and the role of voice in the structure of the narrative.
She could very well be influenced by his work. I think that Nora is actually a very good author, most of the time. However, she does have her moments when I wonder what her editor or beta reader was thinking when they let that paragraph or chapter or whatever make into the finished product.
Any other authors you would recommend for alternative POV styles?
When they do mean to, well. Usually I think it's laziness. I'm with
(Editing to add a tl;dr: I studied the modernists in uni and if there's one person who can pull off POV shifting to my (admittedly snobbish satisfaction), it's Virginia Woolf. The Waves is sublime but definitely not to everyone's liking, and I'd argue that the POV shifts aren't so much about showing a character's head as they are an element of something much larger. Which, I suppose, is when I don't mind the shifts? Ulysses has this to some degree as well (though I'd argue he does it in a different manner for different reasons) and Conrad's absolute genius for unreliability and lack and layers and sheer subtle mastery.)
Edited at 2008-08-13 01:54 am (UTC)
I agree with you here. Although I will say that I don't have to have a full chapter for each character, I do need more than one paragraph.
Have you read War and Peace? I never have but I'm curious now that we're talking about it, I wonder how that novel treats all the characters regarding POV, etc.
Thanks for the suggestions, re: Woolf, etc. I have to admit that I've never read any of the mentioned works but now I'm intrigued and will pick them up at the local library. :)
I had to answer both "yes" and "no" to your question about whether this would put me off reading, because no, I generally don't have a problem with this when reading profic novels (though it can be a bit distracting if I've been reading nothing but fanfic for a while, and it can take half a chapter or so for my brain to stop going "huh?" at each shift).
But yes, this can be and often is enough to make me stop reading a short story -- i.e., the vast majority of fanfic. I've read only a very small handful of fanfic stories that were deliberately and skillfully written in omniscient POV -- Keiko Kirin's "Steak Series" (SG-1 Jack/Daniel) being the only example that comes immediately to mind. Most of the time I expect and all but require fanfic to be in tight POV, shifting only at clear breaks (stories/scenes/whatever) within the narrative, and only for good reason.
I've read SO MUCH fanfic over the past 15 years that I think I've begun to look at profic with the same eye. There are certain fanfic tropes that I adore, that I think add so much to character creation and understanding that I miss them when profic doesn't use them. So, yeah, the tight POV that I've come to expect and maybe even DEMAND in fic has started to bleed into my expectations for profic.
Maybe the issue is intent.
And then you have the lazy writing, which to be honest, is what I think happened to Nora, where the author simply doesn't take the time to do it right. And while I will heartily admit that there is no one right way, there are certainly wrong ways. That is what makes me stop reading.
I read the "Steak Series" years ago and I don't recall the POV style. I will have to go back and take a look.
I love the Chesapeake Blue series. Those brothers, man, whoo. I think that is the series that makes me pick up anything that Nora writes, even if I put it down after ten pages.
you don't really entertain the thought that a published author might be doing it wrong. Or at least I didn't. *shrug*
I really didn't either. This was a huge revelation for me, one that I still have to remind myself of now and again.
Patrick O'Brian is one of my favourite authors ever - but he changes POV's all over the place. It's a little bit jarring - but it's his style - and I'm used to it.
Howevere when I write I absolutely never change POV mid chapter. Sometimes a whole story is one POV - but sometimes I will switch off. That's my style.
Do you think it's a specific choice that O'Brian made when he started writing or does it feel like a subconscious thing?
Howevere when I write I absolutely never change POV mid chapter. Sometimes a whole story is one POV - but sometimes I will switch off. That's my style.
Was this a conscious choice that you made? Were you taught that this style or did you just write that way naturally?
I try to maintain POV when I write and have clear shifts when I do change. Try being the operative word here. ;)
Patrick O'Brian's wrtiting style is like no other - his books don't seem to have a beginning, middle or end. They really are just a bunch of stuff happening. It's his characters that keep you hooked, that and the incredible wealth of detail crammed into every page.
Was this a conscious choice that you made? Were you taught that this style or did you just write that way naturally?
It's so long since I started writing I hardly recall. I just seemed to pick it up and adopt it. Probably because it's the style I myself prefer.
In a way it seems too easy to just tell the reader everything that's going on. Sometimes it's more fun & challenging for the reader to figure it out for themself.
I try to maintain POV when I write and have clear shifts when I do change. Try being the operative word here. ;)
It can be tricky at times! I remember going back and reading my really early stuff and realising I'd mixed up my points of view all over the place!
Personally, I'd go with any of the four Chesapeake Blue books. :)
I think, when done well, it doesn't bother me so much. But there are few things that annoy me as much as getting to the end of a paragraph (or whatever) and realising that the POV has changed and I've got to read that all over again but with the knowledge that it's another character thinking it.
I think, personally, I prefer not knowing what everyone is thinking in a story and I do think that's born out of fanfic to a great extent. Knowing what everyone is thinking/feeling bores me. I like there to be some mystery. Of course the trick there is making sure your character is always able to get the necessary info to keep the plot moving.
In fantasy it's essier to do, I think because you, as a rule, have so many different groups of people doing so many different things that differnt POV's are what get you through the story.
Romance...I'm less sure that we need to see everyone's POV because there is generally fewer people to keep track of and, for me, it's boring.
I know that I break POV only at the end of chapters or in clearly marked chapters.
But hey, if it's skillfully written, I'm unlikely to notice the difference. I only notice when it's badly written or akwardly done.
OMG, YES!
Romance...I'm less sure that we need to see everyone's POV because there is generally fewer people to keep track of and, for me, it's boring.
I used to think that, re: romance is boring, because it was much more simple than, let's say, fantasy novels like Lord of the Rings. But I have found myself really enjoying the quiet, simple nature of well written romance novels. Which can be hard to find but I have found a few.
Romance is interesting to me because you need to see the love story unfold from both sides. This is different than, let's say, "chick lit" where it's generally all from just one POV- the neurotic chick. I guess this just points to my need for multiple POV's BUT well written and with clear transitions from one to the other.
But hey, if it's skillfully written, I'm unlikely to notice the difference. I only notice when it's badly written or akwardly done.
I've been thinking a lot about this and am trying to look back at novels that I really enjoyed o see if they have the POV issue that Nora's book has and if so, why didn't I notice it when I was reading.
(I just spent the day doing hard labor for a work charity function and I'm not entirely sure that the above text made ANY sense. If not, I'm very, very sorry.)
I don't know, I guess I don't tend to think much when I read her books, I mean, the plot is always kind of the same, isn't it? That's not to say I don't enjoy them, just that I tend to know how things go in the end.
Her plots... there does seem to be a pattern, yes. :) And yeah, I know how things are generally going to go. I think where I draw pleasure (well, usually) from her novels are the characters and the dialog and how she puts all the pieces together. Easy, fun reads.
I also think that in many of her books, she shows great skill and craft. She knows how to write the books that readers want to read. The reason that this bothered me was that this particular book seems to be lacking that same skill and craft. Perhaps in previous books of hers, the other elements worked so well for me that the POV issue didn't matter or didn't even hit me. Unfortunately, that was not the case with this one.
If and when you do read Blue Smoke, I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Edited at 2008-08-14 01:48 am (UTC)
I'll come back to tell you what I thought of Blue Smoke. Hopefully I'll get to it at some point!